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Battle (step 3)
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Thread: Battle (step 3)

  1. #1
    Otherwind's Official Spokesman Guild Masters's Avatar
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    Arrow Battle (step 3)

    Hello testers!

    We have already set the equipment bonus and the squad’s sizes and stats, so the stats used in combat are already definitive and we are currently reviewing the combat system.

    We base on results of millions of combat from simulations, as well as the real combats recorded from the beta-testing, but we’d like to hear how the user is feeling the combats. If you have something to share about combat, this is your chance!

    We will review all the stats affecting the combats: character’s attributes and their influence in combat, chance to hit, damage, bonuses to several attackers hitting the same target… Leave the active skills aside of this discussion, since they will be balanced later, but passive skills should be in consideration here, as they were considered on the step one.

    How do you feel the combats against the monsters with the same level that your size? Or they are lower or higher than your size? When they are one big monster or when they are several smaller ones? How do you feel your hits and your damage?

    Here we can also affect the balance of different guilds. Every guild has weakness and strengths. If you think that some of them (related with the combat) should be increased or decreased, you may expose it here. For instance, a basic fighter should beat any other basic character in duel (it’s their job!), but it should not be certain for well-developed characters as wizards base their power on spells and scouts on their skills. And definitely, a diverse, balanced party will should beat a pack of fighters or a bunch of wizards, as the weakness of a member may be covered by the strengths of a companion, getting a stronger party.

    These changes should be final before activate the PvP and remember that any change on the combat will affect both, players and monsters!

    Updating:


    We are making these changes to the combat. They will be uploaded with the next update. These changes pretend to be final, though we probably will make some fine tunning.

    - Overwhlemed target for multiple attackers to a same target has gone. This bonus will no more be applied. Instead, the target's defense will be divided among the players, weitghted by the attaker's ATT score. For instance, attacker A with att 200 and attacker B with att 50 are hitting a target with def 125. Attack A will find a defense of 100 and B will find a defense of 25.

    - Defense attribute is now more important in fights. Now, a higher defense will avoid more hits. Furthermore, combat formulas to hit as been noticeably changed.

    - Defense action has been separated on 4 different specialized actions, one for guild: Parry for fighters, Defense for priests, Dodge for scouts and Deflect for wizards (former dodge skill is now called lightning reflexes). They are based on different attributes depending on the guild (not necessary their main attribute) and they don't work in the same way. Priests has been benefit here being Defense the best one.

    - A minimum damage has been set. We won't see again a hit for 2 HP with a 200 ATT.

    - Members in Squads will last more time. They will be weighted by their own vit and not for the vit added to the squad. So now the main character will may "receive damage" though members in squad are still alive. Consecuently, they won't be blown in the first hit.

    We are still studying more changes, on the damage and the length of the combats.
    Last edited by Alex; March 5th, 2013 at 22:29. Reason: Updating

  2. #2
    Administrator Isildur's Avatar
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    Great news!

    I have one question about combat system: is "defense" action effective at all? In the various test I've made using it I have seen no influence in the combat, or even worse, it looked to me that using it made it easier to get hit . Is that only a perception? I admit I have not performed a hundred tests, but only a few dozens, so it might be just an impression I have.
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  3. #3
    Developer - Managing Director Alex's Avatar
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    Currently, Defending will add your ATT score to your Defense, so this action will be as effective are your Attack score is. This is also subsceptible to be changed at this point

  4. #4
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    That makes the skill Magic Shield pointless to use for me.

  5. #5
    Developer - Managing Director Alex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Hadley View Post
    That makes the skill Magic Shield pointless to use for me.
    But Magic Shield last for the whole combat, so you may cast magic shield and next turns, defend and get both bonuses, so I think there is a point. But please, as we said before, don't discuss on this thread about the active skills, they will be adjusted later and we must set the combat without skills.

    Btw, a change being considered was adding to the DEF only ATT/2 and not the whole ATT, so feedback as Isildur's is very useful here and now to take these decissions.

  6. #6
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    I have collected some personal stats of a few players and I use them here with permission, but will not give out character's names. I will mostly focus on personal stats, but even with squad numbers that I have seen, the situation does not improve. I will focus on attack and defense scores.


    I do not know if this has been a trend since you have removed a lot of the dam red equipment, but it is my understanding that some players were building themselves defensively before the nerfing anyway.

    I also understand as players we can build ourselves as we see fit and that we all have a skill set that can be used (but so does every other guild).

    Fighter, Level 42 (uses collected diamonds and/or gold to purchase equipment)
    Attack: 920
    Def: 958

    Priest, Level 38 (uses collected diamonds to purchase from Blacksmith offers mainly)
    Def: 986

    Scout #1, Level 42(an under-developed character who has mainly relied on gifts from masters)
    Attack: 750
    Def: 686

    Scout #2, Level 42 (uses collected diamonds to purchase most items)
    Attack: 914
    Def: 710

    Scout #3, Level 49 (uses collected diamonds and also has items purchased with real money)
    Attack: 1213
    Def: 895

    My main concern with these numbers is: As 'Masters of Defense", it looks like the Scouts are lacking. The level up of 10 free def points and the Dodge skill is not giving Scouts anywhere near the def that other guilds can EASILY make for themselves. While I understand priests should have the ability to create a higher def, should it be that easy? And with the fighter already easily making attack and vitality, is it ok that we EASILY give them very high defense numbers too? The fighter gets over each Scout listed here with their attack numbers.
    The only Scout listed here who has a bigger attack than the fighter's and priest's def is one who has used real money to make themselves a 'developed' character, and by the time the fighter or priest is of their level, well... will they be able to get over those defenses then...? If a player must be many levels higher than a fighter or priest to beat them, does that not sort of screw up your theory about well-balanced in levels for parties?

    Must every guild but the fighters spend money, so they can beat the fighter?


    The Fighter as the End All to Be All Character

    I GET that fighters should be tough. But your average player shouldn't be forced to pay to beat them. I fear that making the fighter the 'ultimate character' will have results like this: they will realise that single play will be more beneficial for them as they will KNOW they can beat 98% of the other players they can go up against. So they will go after people who wish to play alone or those who cannot get in a party. The solution is not saying these people should just join a party. I will remind you that you even now you have many players who prefer to play this game alone (because they do not like other people, because they can only log in a few times a week, because leveling can be faster alone, whatever....).
    Last edited by Zab; March 1st, 2013 at 11:27.

  7. #7
    Developer - Managing Director Alex's Avatar
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    Thanks this is useful information for us. Not just the numbers, but the way how they got those scores.

    Of course, fighters must not be the ultimate character. Though they may have advantage in lone fight with basic characters, they must be beaten with skills and spells. They are not still being beaten? Well, we are here, working to get it and trying to work along the community. We published our roadmap, and we express everyday our willing to get the balance. Or you really think that we want to force player to beat fighters? We are providing ways to the community to take part to get this balance. This thread is open just for that reason. And this should be used to detect unbalances and suggest solutions.

    Well, about the guilds stats, these are my thoughts:

    I don't think that scouts be the masters of defense. When I hear master of defense, a paladin or an armoured cleric come to my mind. Scouts should have the higher natural defense due to their agility, increased by light armor, but the final defense should be surpassed by heavy armor. It works this way in every role-playin game, tabletop rpg or computer rpg that I have played. So yes, fighters and priests have access to a heavier armor, which are also more expensive. They are also in the front line of the combat. I'm sure that many of them would change their armour for a spot in the second row
    In the other hand, scouts are more polivalent. Leaving aside the bonuses on party size and bonus to experience, they get a higher amount of energy to use skills, and have equipment with bonus to energy. With skills working, energy is the more important score. For instance, with Aimer Shot you get 5 times your energy in Attack. So this is what I conclude from all this is that when we review the active skills, we must be sure they are useful. Also we could think something to give priests a bonus defense over fighters, as a bonus on the defense action or a natural % bonus on the armour equipped.

    What are you you putting forward then, to lower fighter's defense compared with scouts defense?
    - Reduce fighter exclusive equipment bonuses?
    - Increase cost of fighter exclusive equipment bonuses?
    - Any other idea?

  8. #8
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    But you give Scouts the highest allotments in defense, which SHOULD mean we are rather like 'masters'. The fighter gets attack as his main because he is supposed to be tough. HE IS. The wizard and priest gets energy because he is supposed to use spells and prayers. THEY DO. Despite the fact that you see an "armored cleric" in your head means nothing when you gave defense as the main skill to a scout and not to them...... Every other guild's main WORKS for them, but as you can see from the numbers, it doesn't really work for the scout. It doesn't make sense to say we have 'the high ability to dodge' (as it says on the character description), if we can't. Looking over the numbers, you see there is little chance to dodge a fighter and probably not many wizards either....... From the numbers I have provided you can see the difference between fighter's attack and scout's defense can be in the 100s of points range. It should be a closer contest between main attributes.

    I do not know if you should mess with equipment numbers on fighters or scouts, if you should up a scout's dodge skill or if you should just give scouts a different main attribute.

  9. #9
    I agree with Zab, Fighters should not have so mutch "free" defense, if so maybe other classes should have "free" vitality?
    But i quite don't understend why scouts whould need to have so mutch defense? they're on back line, like wizzards, and wizzards have like 100 def max. It's just don't make sense for me. Maybe if you really want to play solo, but it should not be like scouts/fighters can easily play solo and other classes can't.


    I think that every class should have at least one passive skill that help party in fights. Now i can only see priests passive skills, and they're weak. Wizzards could have something like +mag damage for all, it would be nice.

    More about fights:
    Dying in 1st round is not fun!
    Being one shoted by monster is not fun!
    Priests need buff.
    Wizzards need buff.
    Monsters should have more vit!, but mutch weaker attack!.
    Average fight is like 2, 3 rounds, I think it's too short!
    Because of that fights don't need any strategy, we don't need to use skills and potions, many skills is useless(e.g.Poison Cloud:1 DAM /SL every turn).


  10. #10
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    Lukasz, as someone who played solo for quite a long time, I personally think vitality is the most important attribute to have, but taking that into a party is not always best then because the party needs you to be higher in other things, like attack or energy. The only guild I worry about through lone play is the priest. If they build themselves as descriptions say they should, the game is crazy slow for them and I have known a few priests who have quit well before reaching level 10 in the game, so lone play as this character isn't in a very good state. I might add something in the description of priests that say they thrive better in a party, so new players will realize lone play will not be as beneficial to them as to other guilds.

    I have to agree, it doesn't make sense that Scout is a dodger, but not really. Both priests and wizards have energy as their main, maybe attack should be the main of both scouts and fighters.

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